Monday, September 15, 2014

Україна

From "Catholic & Orthodox: Steps Towards a Reunited Church" on Facebook:

Ukrainian Catholic:
Before blaming the western churches and the Catholics for what is happening in Ukraine, I suggest you take a look at your Moscow patriarch. Time and time again, your patriarch and his priests continue to fan the flames of war by supporting terrorism and promoting war from their pulpits. Yes, the ROC has much to loose in Ukraine as sentiment is turning against them and it seems they will need to return the churches they stole from the UOC and the UGCC. It is sad, however, to see Russian "priests" blessing bombs, tanks and machine guns.
It's worth remembering that although almost all of Eastern Europe is naturally nationalistic, so you find both Catholic and Orthodox clergy taking sides in the Ukraine, and although Greek Catholics are in a way the heart of Ukrainianism, the most patriotic Ukrainians, not having a Russian identity (ruled by Poland, sometimes with Austria on top, from the 13th or 14th century through World War II), most of the Ukraine isn't Greek Catholic. It's secular with a big Orthodox minority like Russia. I understand they speak Russian but want to be independent, as Austria speaks German but isn't Germany. That's fine, and not my call anyway. So although the Ukrainian Catholic Church is clearly allied with the new Ukrainian government, Russian xenophobia blaming them for the fighting seems a bit of a stretch.

UC:
John, Ukrainian priests aren't blessing tanks, bombs and machine guns. The Russian orthodox are. Secondly, it's not "the" Ukraine. It's simply Ukraine. Thirdly, many people in the east speak Russian because Ukrainian was forbidden by the Russians during soviet times. People simply weren't allowed to speak Ukrainian and were forced to speak Russian and forced to become Russian orthodox. The Russians along with the roc has always tried to erase the language, culture and identity of Ukraine. A BIG failure.
I wouldn't be surprised if Ukrainian Catholic priests were blessing troops and weapons. The faith isn't nationalism, but patriotism as love of extended family is normal. Sorry, no, I say "the Ukraine." Just like it's Burma, not Myanmar, and Paris, not "Paree." (Beijing is Beijing, though.) Dropping the article makes me feel like I'm faking a Slavic accent. Actually, the Soviets went back and forth about language; when they thought it helped them, they'd promote Ukrainian. The Ukrainian Catholic Church was once the whole Kiev metropolia, which included all of the Ukraine and Byelorussia too. People were forced to become Russian Orthodox as Russia annexed more of the east and central Ukraine and Byelorussia over the centuries, and again after the Soviets stole the remaining Ukrainian Catholic homeland during World War II.

UC:
John: Yes, UGCC and UOC priests bless the troops and pray for their safety. Unlike the ruskies, they do not bless bombs and guns. Big difference! Also, since you say "the" Ukraine, I assume your posts will refer to THE Russia, THE Italy and THE Byelorussia. As far as the language issue...WHEN did the Russians EVER promote the Ukrainian language? It was ALL about forcing Russian on not only Ukraine but everyone around Russia.
"Also, since you say 'the' Ukraine, I assume your posts will refer to THE Russia, THE Italy and tHE Byelorussia ." No, but in English one says "the United States" (because, technically, it should be plural! — "the United States are"), "the Vatican," "the Congo," "the Sudan," and, if you're feeling British, "the Lebanon." No need to be offended. Ray, I've seen Soviet stuff from the '70s, etc. printed in Ukrainian.

By the way, it's heartwarming yet ironic to see OicwRs show some residual loyalty to Catholicism by promoting Ukrainian nationalism vs. Russianism. As a Catholic defending our true-church claim, nothing to do with Russia's national myth, I believe that's short-sighted. I'm looking at the big picture by respecting the Orthodox: bring the Russians back into the family. Of course we will defend our people, but to push their agenda at the Russians' expense is wrong: vindictive.

OicwR: OicwRs?

OicwR: "Orthodox in communion with Rome." Not in the Catholic sense of unlatinized Byzantine Catholics, but Byzantine Catholics who dissent from Catholicism by siding with Orthodox opinion against Catholicism, yet not becoming Orthodox. "We're both the true church." Which disrespects the Orthodox as much as us. Fantasy church in my opinion.

American convertodox who believes in Russianism:
Okay, Ray, I have seen your diatribes against Russia/Putin/Moscow time and again. It makes me wonder if you realize exactly who it is that the pro-Russia forces are actually fighting against in Ukraine. That Kiev government is nothing more than a neo-Nazi military junta which is engaged in "ethnic cleansing" against Russians living in Western Ukraine. If you don't believe me, feel free to look up their leadership (they are called the "Svoboda" party). And for the record, the Orthodox Church has a long history of resisting Nazism — in fact we recently canonized a saint in who was martyred Germany during WW2 for that very reason. So when I hear you condemning the Orthodox Church for opposing Nazism, I take it as a badge of honor. Now do you have a right to support the actions of that Nazi government in Ukraine and cheer them on as they massacre innocent civilians? Of course you do. But make no mistake, that IS what you are doing when you condemn the Orthodox Church for opposing them.

Furthermore, with regard to our Priests doing blessings on military vehicles, are you suggesting that this is somehow inappropriate, or makes hem responsible for every action ever taken by those vehicles? Are the Roman Catholics responsible for the slaves taken by the Spanish and Portuguese ships they blessed before their voyages across the Atlantic? The blessing of ships and other military vehicles is a time honored tradition in both the East and West. And it has never been taken as any sort of "endorsement" of any particular military campaign that those objects would later be used in.

For the record, although the USA and the Western Media try to downplay the Nazism of the Kiev government, they are, in fact, Nazis. Here is one of several articles posted on the subject from right after this military junta took over the country.
Whether that's true or not, it's not my fight, and Kiev has no designs on Moscow's territory. Moscow MIGHT (but I don't think so) on Donetsk and other pro-Russian eastern Ukrainian regions. That said, the Ukrainian revolutionaries didn't like how democracy was working out in Kiev (the duly elected Mr. Yanukovych got a better deal from the Russians than the EU) so they overthrew the authorities; how are the rebels in the Crimea, Donetsk, etc., different other than the Ukrainian nationalists don't like Russia? And the revolutionaries mostly weren't Catholic; their acting president was a Protestant.

Whoo boy. Politically correct — anti-Nazi, pro-Soviet — and Russianist and high-church. Cover all your bases, I guess. No, it doesn't work.

I'd welcome a new Ukraine that's a conservative, authoritarian Slavic state but, unlike Russia, welcoming to Catholics.

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