Catholic integralism is the true seamless garment.From here: "And stories like that are partly why I say mother church offers both the unlatinized and latinized forms of the Byzantine Rite. She doesn't force you to hate one to love the other."
That latinized forms of the Byzantine and Oriental Rites exist is contrary to the expressed intent of several popes, most recently HH Benedict.CAF is, I'm fairly sure, Catholic Answers, a conservative Catholic board and thus an object of byzcath's crunchy neo-pseudo-Byzantine contempt. I've hardly been there.
Serge,
Your continued posting in support of a latinized Byzantine Rite is getting more than tiresome, particularly as it is being directed to an audience that has no love for nor any interest in such - a view that has been expressed thousands of times over the years here.
Enough is enough! The number of threads locked here in recent weeks as a consequence of your echolalic commentary has become unacceptable and I'm getting tired of being polite about it.
Find meaningful topics of discussion in which to engage. If you want to blither incessantly about the spiritual succor that you find in latinized versions of the Eastern and Oriental Rites or to warn naive Latins and ECs/OCs of the dangers to their souls that arise from associating too closely, theologically, spiritually, liturgically, or otherwise with their Orthodox brethren, do so on your nickel - at your blog - or open your own forum with appropriate safeguards to save Catholics and Orthodox from one another - or go to CAF, where such an attitude is more than welcome.
Many years,
Neil
Since I can't send messages via byzcath anymore:
You're beating up a strawman, pal. As I've repeatedly written, I also support the unlatinized form and friendly contacts with the Orthodox (including going to them for Saturday Vespers). I don't support relativism being passed off as the teaching of our church.
What's interesting is the contrast of your attitude to the born Ukrainian Catholics I've known in real life, for example. Such as the pro-life doctor whose clean-shaven, Latin-cassocked priest grandfather was shot to death by Nazis.
So is this disdain what you feel for many born Greek Catholics? "Too dumb" to follow the tradition you know so much better than they?
Reminds me of the white New Age American Indian wannabe who went to an Indian gathering and told a surviving holy man he was doing it all wrong. The Indians set him straight; I doubt he could see straight for a while afterwards.
The board has a lot of potential to educate Catholics and bring Catholics and Orthodox together, but they've thrown the church under the bus to look cool.
They're as nutty as Payday candy bars over there. I'd count it an honor to be suspended by a cluster of crazy cyber-wraiths who live on the Internet.
ReplyDeletebyzcath is mostly Catholics who discovered the Byzantine Rite last week, relatively speaking, and thumb their noses at Rome while thinking everything the Orthodox think is super. Usually such leave the church; a few stick around. Anyway the party line there is a branch theory. "Love the rite? Mad at the Catholics? Switch to the Orthodox! Vatican II says Catholics don't think only they are the true church anymore. We BOTH are!"
DeleteI love the unlatinized form of the rite - the way many Orthodox do it. I also love the latinized form many of our people adopted.
byzcath hates the latinized form - so they look down on a lot of born Byzantine Catholics - and thinks the conservative Catholics who come to Byzantine Catholic churches for the liturgy are stupid, an embarrassment.
John, I meant to engage some of the points you raised 'over there', though I didn't get a chance to before the conversation was cut short, as it were. I am disappointed to hear that you've been suspended from the forum, though I have to say I disagree with your overall take on the range of opinion over there.
ReplyDeleteThey forget - the most important element of any Byzantine Church is its people. To most of them, they are reminded of many dark periods in their history and hence, all they want to do is worship without disruption and with peace. And if there are add-ons for the needs of the people, so be it.
ReplyDeleteThey forget - each usage of the Byzantine Church is different and the hierarchs of each Church can do as they see fit. They should know better (and I learnt this well enough) that what they need is groundwork theology and constant parish prayer life; hence exposing them to the fullness of their tradition. They care very little about what is discussed academically. So, if you go for the Liturgy, get to know the people and their spirituality. You may have to water down Schmemann, Ware etc for them, and that is fine. Just be sure to celebrate the Liturgy the way they know it. In other words, be 'naš'. They forget that its going to be a lot harder in the Orthodox Church. So I say to them - make the move, cabrones.
I got suspended many years ago for basically, being Catholic. I never bothered trying to go back.
ReplyDeletesame with me
Deletegood response by the way YF, but that niel fellow has nothing but disdain for the UGCC, hes made some spiteful and nasty comments before about St Josaphat. like others said consider it an honor to be banned from that syncretist slime pit.
+1, Sybok.
DeleteI had occasion to visit a Ruthenian (?) parish sometime last year. I am glad to say that I am not so familiar with the Byzantine liturgy and I don't have all of the historical facts and figures at my fingertips to get huffy that the parish did or didn't do "x" in a "correct" manner (with one minor exception, ha!).
ReplyDeleteIn real life every parish does something differently, and that's how its always been since the old days of Byzantium. I have a certain disgust for these liturgical cyber choreographers out there.
DeleteAs has been explained to me, fake religion is always about self as opposed to God, which applies to liturgical prissiness among us conservatives and traditionalists. There is love for the unlatinized form of the Byzantine Rite, which is a good thing, and then there is anti-Westernism, schism being an extreme form of that, but also the attitude on byzcath that the latinized form has no right to exist: contempt for ethnic Ukrainian Catholics among others.
Deleteyes exactly, you summarize what i was thinking.
Deletei deleted my comment because i thought it would be understandably misinterpreted - i dont mean trash people who enjoy liturgics or enjoy the "pure" (mega quotes) byzantine rite, but those who are so caught up in it ceases to be worshiping God and becomes this weird sectarian thing. (we're only talking in a eastern context here, Novus Ordo is different story)
what i mean is like the attitude that if it isnt its identical to St Elias (which is a great place) then they arnt true eastern catholics and must be disregarded and said parish is lazy, latinized, and an insult to byzantium. then theres the ultimate byzcath sin - no iconostas (i agree you should really have one but lack of which shouldn't cause the entire community to be viciously judged. most greek catholic churches in hungary, romania, and western canada lack one actually. sometimes i kind of like it like that just to spite the byzcath types - the romanian gk catholic church near me lacks one) they get so caught up in it that Jesus and God become a distant second place if not forgotten in the conflict to make sure the rituals are perfect.
There just aren't that many Eastern Catholics in the West, so many well-meaning Catholics have never heard of them. (My late dad hadn't, most of his life.) And as I've written, they're fading away.
ReplyDeleteI know of them because I remember seeing a picture of John Paul II visiting the Ukrainian Catholic cathedral in Philadelphia, and because I went to high school in New Jersey where I met the first Eastern Christians I knew well, a family of Ukrainian Catholic exiles from World War II. So my first traditional Catholic liturgy was Ukrainian.
They have a great opportunity to give other Catholics a great CONSERVATIVE example of married priests.
The rite's great, but if you turn against the rest of the church because of it, even leaving the church for Orthodoxy, you're the devil's chump.
I stopped posting on (and indeed reading) byzcath after Fr Serge died. He had a gift for debunking the nonsense from all sides.
ReplyDeleteRather like in the '60s and '70s, the liberal Episcopalians becoming high-church and Novus Ordo-fying their classic English services weren't really trying to make Episcopalians Catholics but to work with Catholic liberals to create a not really Catholic liberal church, the indifferentists at byzcath seem to have created an imaginary hobby church in Byzantine drag.
ReplyDeleteToo true!
DeleteThanks.
DeleteOne more, which I quoted a few years ago: for Westerners, Orthodoxy is escapism. I won't say the same about Greek Catholicism though it seems to be self-limiting/waning here; it's not leaving the church and it's an honorable option for conservative Catholics in a hostile host culture.
The fantasy church of byzcath is neither Catholic nor Orthodox.
i think you nailed it
Delete