Catholic integralism is the true seamless garment.
I'm not talking about online Orthodox; they're understandable. I mean there is no place online (anymore?) where Byzantine Catholics who believe in Catholicism (and their friends such as yours truly), unlatinized and latinized (the fora: "the latinized form has no right to exist"), are welcome. It's not really love of the rite; it's anti-Western snobbery, like online Orthodoxy's waiting room. Facebook fora are as bad as byzcath. Trying to talk somebody out of leaving the church? You're a judgmental bastard. Catholicism's the church? How gauche. Predictable and tiresome places: religion there is a game. (Fake religion: self.) It's a shame because it's a great rite; they're making it look bad to good Catholics. Catholics and Orthodox can't even really talk to each other there. The "ecumenical" version of Orthodox there glom onto Catholic liberals' misreading of Vatican II ("Catholicism no longer teaches it's the true church") to justify being in schism (they seem amenable to the church at first but they're really not); the Catholics there are all branch theorists agreeing with them ("that's right; we're both the church — Catholics are in schism"); a made-up religion that's not really Catholic. You can be as unlatinized as you-name-it (the Melkites, the Russian Catholics, St. Elias in Brampton) but if you speak up for the magisterium, you're John Ireland or some other ignoramus trying to turn them into Roman Riters against their will. Assumption: "Roman Riters are ignorant." Get over yourselves: you discovered the rite last week, relatively speaking; you don't know better than the church. Yassas (γειά σας), folks. Goodbye to the lodge (doctrine is for dummies; indifferentism is for the enlightened: sound familiar?).
Does anybody know of any loyal Catholic boards about the Christian East or any nonsectarian ones about it where loyal Catholics are welcome? Because a REAL Catholic/Orthodox dialogue would be good.
Fr. Serge (Keleher) was an unlatinized Byzantine Catholic by choice/calling who believed in Catholicism. (Having passed through Orthodoxy, he saw through it.) Eternal memory.
The only one I can think of where faithful Catholics are not attacked on a regular basis is the Eastern Catholic sub-forum at forums.catholic.com. Although, even there you get we are all in schism types, but nothing as bad as byzcath.
ReplyDeleteAnthony
Ευχαριστώ/спасибо/дякую/thanks.
DeleteThat didn't last long.
DeleteTo their credit, they have a thread about Orthodox anti-Westernism. But they have crossover from byzcath as you say, and they're trying to be nice and PC in the Vatican II spirit of ecumenism so there you go. You're not allowed to say that Lutheranism (which I described as our close cousins reminding us of the primacy of God's love and mercy) is man-made, for example.
You win some, you lose some.
That's part of the way of the Novus Ordo approach -- it won't simply stand up and defend the Church openly and clearly.
DeleteYou know... I met Cardinal Burke last night and I told him about this. He nodded and said that they can indeed be troublesome. For a supposed "hard ass", he is quite a teddy bear if you ask me. Genuine and gentle.
ReplyDeleteGood to know the Holy See knows they're a problem. They're causing scandal and encouraging people to leave the church. Some of them should be excommunicated.
DeleteI can understand wanting to view papal infallibility in a different light but we cannot refuse the teaching altogether. I will reiterate Patriarch Gregory III Laham's simple point which summarises our fidelity to the Church. Feel free to find the correct quote for this but it goes along these lines: Yes to Christ, yes to the Church, and yes to the Pope!
ReplyDeleteAs I like to say, all of our church polity is negotiable except the papacy and the episcopate, which are to do with doctrine. That's the foundation of Catholic/Orthodox dialogue.
DeleteThe strange thing about this is that it is not at all the "scene in the pews" ... at least not in my personal experience.
ReplyDeleteIt is very sad, because if Eastern Catholicism could present a more unified, excited-to-be-both-Eastern-and-Catholic face to the world, I believe it could convert scores of people and profoundly impact the world and the Church.
I can appreciate the delicacies generated by intermarriage, conversions, etcetera ... but polite forthrightness is a mercy, it means you love someone enough to be honest with them. Playing intellectual footsie so as to not offend someone at all costs is truly less respectful of the other's dignity.
The devil must hate Greek Catholicism, because he has spared no expense in abusing and confusing its faithful, all over the world. This is a sign of its potential. All the more reason for prayer and fasting.
The strange thing about this is that it is not at all the "scene in the pews" ... at least not in my personal experience.
DeleteExactly. Nor mine.
It is very sad, because if Eastern Catholicism could present a more unified, excited-to-be-both-Eastern-and-Catholic face to the world, I believe it could convert scores of people and profoundly impact the world and the Church.
Indeed. I don't know where this strange online convert brew of Orthodox-like anti-Westernism and Catholic liberalism ("Catholicism's not the true church") came from but it's not doing real Eastern Catholicism any favors.
I can appreciate the delicacies generated by intermarriage, conversions, etcetera ... but polite forthrightness is a mercy, it means you love someone enough to be honest with them. Playing intellectual footsie so as to not offend someone at all costs is truly less respectful of the other's dignity.
Amen. Nobody can say such-and-such is hellbound; an excommunication is only a warning. God understands situations where our own churchmen were unjust to Eastern Catholics (banning the ordination of married men in America — the church has the authority to do that but it was a bad mistake; it pushed good Catholics out of the church so their descendants resent us). Leaving the church, even for a sect with bishops and the Mass, is grave matter. Catholics are obligated to warn someone of that. And treating the Orthodox, who have a parallel true-church claim to ours, like a denomination equally valid as Catholicism is condescending.
The devil must hate Greek Catholicism, because he has spared no expense in abusing and confusing its faithful, all over the world. This is a sign of its potential. All the more reason for prayer and fasting.
Good point. When you're on target, there's more flak. As I say, I'd love it if the dominant Catholicism in America were Byzantine, not Novus Ordo. Regrettably, I don't see that happening; Byzantine Catholicism here is fading away for many of the same reasons real American Orthodoxy (ethnic) is diminishing; assimilation.
Golly, someone is angry. I heard a Marine Gunny say once, "If every where you go it smells like sh*t, it might be because you're dragging it in with you." Seems to be the case, but I love the retro look!
ReplyDeleteThat's true: "Wherever you go, there you are." When I realized many years ago that the problem wasn't with the Catholic Church but with me, I started on my way back.
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